40 is not the new 30 – it's much better than that
An interview about the joys of middle-age – with Katja Berlin and Gunda Windmüller
Today I’m bringing you a very special interview with authors Katja Berlin and Gunda Windmüller. In January, these two women launched a podcast, which was met with a big echo of “finally!” (and that is incredibly rare in the podcast-world today). It’s a podcast for women over forty, the German title is “Fix & Vierzig” and there is really no way to translate this without it losing its wit.
Katja and Gunda, both 41, started their podcast in order to turn the spotlight upon middle-aged women. Finally! Finally there are women having frank conversations about the joy of growing older, finally we get to publicly celebrate aging instead of fighting it. And that’s exactly what I chatted with them about: What do they love about their 40s and what can I, as a 33-year-old, look forward to? But also: Why do we fear aging and why do women of a certain age become nearly invisible in the public eye?
(Disclaimer: I am involved in this podcast project as a technical producer, but I am also just listening and learning along with everyone else.)
Let’s start at the beginning: Where did your idea for this podcast come from?
Katja: I noticed that, in a societal context, women become almost invisible and less appreciated once they hit 40 – while I, personally, have always been fascinated by middle aged and older women. I have always enjoyed talking to and learning from women of that age, long before I turned 40.
Gunda: My perspective on aging, and how middle aged women are perceived by society really changed when I turned 40 myself. So I was very curious to explore this topic together with Katja and our guests.
Why do women disappear from our perception once they hit a certain age?
Gunda: Well, when it comes to media presence, there are very persistent beauty ideals rooted in the youth craze; there’s this idea that women over 40 are starting to decay. Whereas I, personally, feel like I am only just beginning to kick into gear in my 40s.
Katja: There is actually a study from the University of Rostock which shows that women’s media airtime starts to decrease already from the age of 30 – and it gets really bad when they hit 50. And once older women disappear from our screens, they disappear from our consciousness. I guess one factor in the general devaluing of middle-aged and older women could be the male gaze which is lusting after young women – but it might also be that women of a certain age are simply too exhausted to keep fighting for visibility, because they keep hitting the same barriers. Another factor is certainly that once women have children, they sometimes fall into the part-time-trap.
Could it also be one of the patriarchy’s party tricks, talking women into feeling like they are worth less once they hit a certain age?
Gunda: Oh, definitely. It ties in with the topic of visibility. If I am consistently being told that I am less attractive, less interesting once I am over 40 – then I might make myself smaller and don’t dare to take up space.
Katja: But also – now in my 40s, I am much less susceptible and less afraid to speak up than I was in my 20s. It is a little suspicious that society attempts to marginalize women right when they hit that age when they are experienced enough to question the status quo, right when they become uncomfortable.
When did the big 4-0 lose its terror for you?
Gunda: When I turned 40 and the world didn’t end. (laughs)
Katja: I don’t think it ever really held terror for me. I used to have a much older boyfriend, and thus knew a lot of people over 40 long before I turned 40. And as I said, I have always been fascinated by older women. I don’t understand how you can not be intrigued by them. They have such wisdom and so many stories to tell – without putting themselves at the centre of attention, as many older men in powerful positions do.
In your podcast description you write that you want to celebrate not having to be young anymore. What do you mean by that?
Katja: The more life experience you have, the easier it is to see through certain social mechanisms and dynamics. I have observed that many middle aged women simply care less about social conventions and peer pressure. Often, in our 20s, we try to find our place, and in that process we try to squeeze ourselves into roles we think we need to fulfill. I believe that with more life experience you gain the strength to break free from conventions. My general attitude to life has become much more relaxed with age.
Gunda: When I think back to my 20s, I remember feeling very insecure. Insecure about my body, but also my own worth. I never knew – am I okay the way I am? Should I try and be someone else? Should I want to try and be someone else? These questions kept gnawing away at me.
What you describe, Gunda, sounds almost like an early midlife-crisis.
Gunda: I guess it was a classic quarter life crisis. I had so many doubts! Did I choose the right degree? What am I supposed to do with it now? Should I move? Where to? I questioned every decision I had ever made, even all of my friendships – I was just perpetually restless and unhappy. I really wished for someone to give me all the answers, someone who says: You’re on the right track, keep going.
That sounds really tough, and I’m sure a lot of readers can relate. How do your 40s compare to that phase of your life?
Gunda: What I feel now is the opposite of a midlife-crisis: a midlife-boost. I feel so much more relaxed and comfortable in my own skin, in both my mind and body. And I do believe that it’s that extra decade of life experience which got me here.
Is life experience, as in: time passing, really all you need in order to reap those benefits of aging?
Gunda: Simply sitting back and letting time pass is probably not enough. As in every stage of life, self-reflection is important. You have to become aware of the patterns you have created for yourself, the patterns you repeatedly fall back into. How do you react to people, how do people react to you? You do not necessarily need a therapist to dig into this, but I do believe that an active, continuous practice of self-reflection is very important in order to learn from the past and enjoy the process of aging.
With everything you already know about aging: What are you looking forward to in this coming decade?
Katja: I am actually looking forward to my next therapy. At 41, I have a much better understanding of myself and my issues, and so I can tackle them with greater precision. I have a clearer vision of who I am and which of my issues I need to look at together with a therapist. That’s something I definitely want to do in my 40s, as I know it will make my life easier in the long term.
And which topics are you most excited about to cover in your podcast?
Gunda: Any, really. It is so rewarding that we have the chance to make other women feel less alone by talking openly about our own experience of aging. And I can’t wait to break down social conventions even more, and dive deeper into the perception of middle aged women, both through a sociological but also a cultural/historical lens.
Ok, final question: What is the best thing about being in your 40s?
Katja: My increasing self-confidence.
Gunda: My grey hair. I actually find my grey streaks beautiful – and that’s something I probably wouldn’t have said ten years ago. Now I am excited about this change in my body, and I am excited that I don’t feel the need to hide it. So I guess it also comes down to: self-confidence.
Thank you for your time! Here’s to self-confidence, middle age wisdom and never saying “40 is the new 30” – because 40 sounds pretty f*cking cool.
🇩🇪 Ihr könnt “Fix und Vierzig” auf der Podcast-Plattform eurer Wahl abonnieren, dort gibt es jeden Monat zwei kostenlose Podcast-Episoden. Wenn ihr außerdem ein Steady-Abo abschließt, hört ihr jeden Monat eine weitere, exklusive, Folge.
pop culture pleasures
I will (mostly) stay on topic for this issue:
Jennifer Senior wrote a very long, very moving piece for The Atlantic about the importance of friendships – especially as we grow older.
“When you’re in middle age, which I am (mid-middle age, to be precise—I’m now 52), you start to realize how very much you need your friends. They’re the flora and fauna in a life that hasn’t had much diversity, because you’ve been so busy—so relentlessly, stupidly busy—with middle-age things: kids, house, spouse, or some modern-day version of Zorba’s full catastrophe. Then one day you look up and discover that the ambition monkey has fallen off your back; the children into whom you’ve pumped thousands of kilowatt-hours are no longer partial to your company; your partner may or may not still be by your side. And what, then, remains?”
🎧 Zufällig dreht sich in der aktuellen (Abo-only) Folge von “Fix und Vierzig” auch alles über Freundschaften im Mittelalter.
Olivia Colman stars in Maggie Gyllenhall’s adaptation of Elena Ferrante’s novel “The Lost Daughter”. That’s three incredibly talented women over 40, coming together to create one of the most intense, beautifully shot, slow-burn dramas I have seen in a long time (and which was just nominated for three Oscars).
Farah Storr, 43, used to be editor-in-chief of magazine giants like Cosmopolitan and Elle, now she writes a newsletter called “Things Worth Knowing”. Although she is still a very young middle age woman, she seems so wise, and I love to read her perspective on everything from work, to relationships to (non-)motherhood.
Lyz Lenz is also only 40, but – in my inbox – she spearheads the fearless-and-fed-up-middle-aged-women-brigade. She writes a newsletter called “Men Yell at Me”, which, according to her, “sits at the intersection of patriarchy and politics in red state America” (in Iowa, the state which holds my heart, to be precise). If you’re into US politics and/or smashing the patriarchy, Lyz is your gal.
In terms of pop culture, (re-)reading Elizabeth Gilbert’s “City of Girls” is certainly a great idea if you need a large dose of wise and unconventional women over 40.
And are you all subscribed to the Gloria newsletter yet? “It's for women embarking on midlife and those who are curious about what the future holds.” And it’s fun.
Gear change: Victoria Beckham is 47 and has reportedly been eating the same, sad dinner for the past 25 years: Steamed veggies and grilled fish. She calls this: “clean”. Jennifer O'Connell says: “clean eating” is just disordered eating rebranded for the instagram generation. She delivers an excellent analysis for Irish Times:
““Clean”, in the context of food, is a word that makes me want to hurl a wheatgrass shot at the nearest wellness influencer. Clean suggests food is not a source of pleasure, but something dirty, base, shameful, suspicious, animal, uncontrolled.”
Rayne Fisher-Quann comes at this age-thing from the opposite direction. She wrote a brilliant essay about the male urge to date teenagers – or women who look and act like teenagers: “they want a woman who looks like a baby but knows not to cry; a girl who’s mature enough to date older men but not mature enough to know why she shouldn’t.”
This is all for now, thank you so much for being here.
Until next time,
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Inwards/Onwards #2
Small pleasures every day
“[…] I had nearly missed out on something absolutely divine, because I had been saving it for a “special occasion”. A special occasion I hadn’t even defined. What day is special enough to eat a teaspoon of pistachio butter? And what day isn’t? Why hadn’t there been one occasion special enough to break into this green deliciousness within the last two years? I can tell you why: Because I had not been waiting for a special occasion – I had been waiting for a day on which I felt like I deserved something nice. […]”